Drive-By Shootings At Mark Shea's Blog!
This tends to get annoying. When I was in sympathy with Evangelicalism, I believed many strange things about the Catholic Church. The funny thing is, the more educated about Christianity and the Bible one gets, the more sympathy one begins to have with Catholicism. In particular, it is hard to read Church history, particularly the earliest non-Biblical Christian writers, without coming to the conclusion that they were Catholics. John Henry Newman, a famous convert, said that "To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant." One also comes to the amazing realization that it is in fact the Catholic Church which is the Biblical Church!
Essential early Fathers of the Church (Christians living from about 60 to 300 AD) include Clement, Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr, and Irenaeus. Ignatius mentioned the Catholic Church as early as 107 AD.
Some essential reading material about early Christianity includes:
- Four Witnesses by Rod Bennett
- Faith of the Early Fathers - a three volume set by William Jurgens
- The Spirit of Early Christian Thought by Robert Louis Wilken
One of the first things you discover is that it was the Catholic Church, mostly in the context of determining what could or could not be read at liturgy, which determined the set (or canon) of books which were to be considered Scripture. Given that, it is extremely difficult for a Protestant to elucidate why they trust the Bible given that the canon was determined by the Catholic Church.
Once a Protestant reasons his/her way through that and decides that perhaps the Holy Spirit worked through the Church to ensure that the canon of Scripture would not be in error, they have conceded (at least in one case) the possibility and necessity of infallibility in a human being (or group of human beings) by the power of the Holy Spirit.
This concept of infallibility fits in very well with Matthew 16:17-19, where Jesus gives Peter the keys of the kingdom and says "Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." Unless one wishes to say that Jesus has no quarrel with allowing erroneous teachings to be bound and loosed in Heaven, it is hard to get around the fact that Jesus Himself here gave Peter (together with the other Apostles) the gift of infallibility.
To conclude this ramble, I'll link to a very astute comment by Mark Gordon on Mark's website, which commented on the "drive by shooting". Money quote: "Here's an observation from an Evangelical convert to the Catholic Church: The vast majority of those who move from Catholicism to Evangelicalism begin from a point of almost complete ignorance of their Catholic faith. By contrast, the vast majority of those who move from Evangelicalism to Catholicism begin from a point of deep immersion in their Evangelical faith."
BTW, speaking of the commenter above, check out Mark Gordon's sobering blog which chronicles the ongoing Suicide of the West.
posted by Dave @ 1:40 PM
22 Comments:
I may be asking for trouble here, but I'm going to list the reasons here why I've decided to remain Protestant, since this is the topic of your posting. I'll try to be polite, since I also despise the practice of internet drive-by-shooting. And I'll preface this by saying that I almost converted to Catholicism myself a couple years ago. I have long admired the long intellectual tradition of the Church, the willingness to grapple with issues with a level of depth and seriousness that I just don't see on my side of the Tiber. I have read - actually, studied - the encyclical Fides et Ratio, and I am a long-time subscriber to First Things. My best friend is now Catholic as of about eight months ago.
But I'm going to stay put, and here are my reasons:
1) Child sex abuse. I know, priests are no more likely to abuse than anyone else. But in nearly every case where a priest did abuse, we find in the background a bishop who knew about the abuse and a) did nothing to stop it; b) tried to protect the offending priest; and c) abetted further abuse. This is a level of collusion and criminal conspiracy that does not exist in any other church.
This of course is a management problem in the Church, not a doctrinal problem. I may reconsider this issue in 30 years or so, after the current crop of prelates have all either retired or died. But there remain the other issues -
2) Papal infallibility, as currently understood in the Church, is bunk. Paul brags in one of his epistles about having verbally drubbed the first Pope in front of dozens of witnesses, something that would probably result in banishment to Siberia today. I don't claim to understand what Matt. 16 means, but papal infallibility clearly isn't it.
3) Mary is not mentioned in the epistles, and Jesus barely spoke of her except to refute the guy who suggested that she had a special relationship with God because of being His mother. You can "early Church Fathers" me all you want about Marian practices - all that proves to me is that the Church went off the rails early on this issue.
The mediatrix is a particularly odious error in this area: not just wrong, but *dangerously wrong*. There is one mediator between God and man, and that is the Christ. The suggestion of another mediator just might be idolatry.
And that's it, in a nutshell. I hope I haven't offended - and I won't be offended if you post long rebuttals to everything I've written here.
Joel
Joel, that excuse about "not coming on board" because of the sex abuse scandal is a crock. Is the Church not after all a hospital for sinners? Are we to assume that the 'doctors and nurses' are automatically protected from sin? You may be right about the "level of collusion and criminal conspiracy" but if you're relying on the MSM for your info then it has to be said that you're on extremely shakey ground.
I support Dave's argument on the issue of infallibility. Without it (infallibility) I would have to agree with Hazel Motes from Wise Blood who famously said, "The only truth is that there is no truth." It's either infallibility or private opinion. Take your pick. Come to think on it, if the Church wasn't formed to guard the deposit of Truth, then Jesus really wasted His time. Can't go along with that.
As for your beef about Mary. Please please go and bone up on a place like Lourdes. Read Ruth Cranstones book on the healings. She was a Methodist BTW. Fancy knocking the practice of venerating the woman who bore Jesus and raised Him. Joel you don't know what you're missing out on. Don't take this as a personal insult but the relationship between belief and unbelief is similar to somebody who is sober observing a drunk. The drunk cannot imagine what it's like to be sober anymore than the unbeliever can imagine what it's like to believe.
Lighten up a little Joel and in the meantime I'll join with Dave in praying for you.
Another Steve (who arrived here from Mark Shea's blog)
Joel,
Thanks for your reasonable and mostly non-polemical post. As someone who spent his first 27 years as a die hard protestant I wrestled with the same issues you brought up. The Marian issues being my primary concern (I didn't have much problem with Papal Infallibility as it is defined by the Church)
So, that being said, I'll pass over the sex scandal objection, as other posters have covered that adequately, and I agree that it's not a real reason to reject the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church if that is, indeed, what the Catholic Church is.
#2. Papal Infallibility is a much narrower doctrine than most people think it is. A good number of criteria have to be met before a Pope's pronouncements are considered to be infallible by the Church. The Peter/Paul debate is a great example of the Pope being proven wrong on an issue of doctrine! Problem with using that as a 'proof' against Papal Infallibility is that Paul wasn't arguing against an infallible doctrine! The Pope can be and is wrong on a number of things (he IS only human, after all!), however, we trust that the Holy Spirit will not permit him to make doctrinal error when speaking ex cathedra. So far, I haven't seen an example of an infallible doctrinal statement which has been proven fallible. Not bad for 2000 years and a number of wicked Popes and Curias!
#3. Whew, this is my big one. I'm still struggling with it from time to time. I'll handle the mediatrix thing first. Ok, Co-redemptrix. the prefix 'co' does not mean 'equal to', it means 'with' as in 'con'. The doctrines of the Church never EVER place Mary on an equal level with her Divine Son. She holds an exalted place amongst women and is Mother of God (Theotokos, an ancient and universally accepted definition). Just because Jesus died and rose does not mean he stops being Mary's Son. His Mother is Our Mother, and we ask for her prayers and help as we would our own mothers. As for mediator, yes, Christ is our only mediator with the Father (The Catholic Church teaches this), however, Mary and the Saints intercede for us and we petition (pray) them to intercede with us to God. The Epistles DO speak of those dead being not dead but alive, and they also speak of the efficacy of the prayers of a righteous man. Or ought we to ignore that like Luther wanted to ignore the Epistle of James?
Keep reading. Look for the answers and don't stop until you find the best answers on both sides. Keep asking questions! God bless you, brother.
Christopher
1) David is correct in pointing out that the current scandal in the Church is not worse than other scandals in its past. I find it extremely odd that he cites this as a reason to trust the Church.
Well, no I don't. I know exactly where he's coming from. He believes that the Roman Catholic Church = the body of Christ, and I don't. I believe that the body of Christ is bigger than any one denomination. I know this statement pisses off Catholics ("the One True Church is NOT just another denomination!"), but what else am I supposed to say? It's the truth. And when I see one denomination plagued with far greater scandals than any other, I'm going to choose my allegiance accordingly.
Anonymous, on the other hand, neatly dispenses with the call to discipleship by calling the church a hospital for sinners. Therefore, (I suppose) a total lack of holiness, faithfulness, integrity, or humility on the part of the Church's leaders is simply evidence that the Church is doing its job. How perverse.
2) David asks, "why have a papacy at all?" A very good question, particularly in light of the fact that neither Paul nor any other apostle showed any evidence of regarding Peter as a leader. Paul in particular clearly regarded Peter as a) a peer; and b) fallible.
Saying this, by the way, is not accusing the Holy Spirit of bunk. It is accusing the early fathers of bunk. The Holy Spirit can and does work through any and all believers in Christ - including the Pope, no more and no less than through any other Christian.
Anonymous, the church does guard the deposit of truth - sometimes through the Roman Catholic Church, and sometimes through other denominations, based upon where the Spirit finds faithful believers at a particular point in history.
Christopher's position on papal infallibility is defensible, though I remain unconvinced that a Pope is even necessary.
3) David's example of the Trinity as another doctrine without biblical basis falls apart because we do see evidence of the Trinity in the bible - in particular, we see all three members present at Jesus' baptism. Formulating the doctrine of the Trinity was an obvious and necessary step. Not so with the co-redemptrix. We see several different places in the new testament where writers formulate the plan of salvation in careful detail, yet manage to do so without ever mentioning Mary.
Anonymous presents "evidence" in the form of the phenomena at Lourdes. I could just as well present "evidence" in the Azusa Street Revival last century.
Christopher says that Christ is our only mediator with the Father, but then immediately speaks of Mary and the Saints also serving as mediators. Permit to suggest that there is some confusion here.
Well, that's all for now. My experience with the Internet is that discussions tend to degenerate as they grow longer, so I'm not going to post in this thread again. However, I will read the forum in the next few days to see everyone's responses. Again, I hope I haven't offended anyone, and I assure you all that no one has offended me.
Joel
Joel -
The sex scandals are nothing to dismiss and are a sad chapter in the history of the Catholic Church. That said, there have been plenty of similarly sad chapters in the history of various branches of the Church. One needs only look at certain excesses of, for example, the Crusades, the Reformation (executions on both sides of the divide, and shameful, slanderous polemics), the Inquisition, the colonization of North America and Africa, not to mention the sad reality of Christian apologetics for and complicity in sinful practices and periods in history (Slavery, the Holocaust). Neither Catholic, nor Protestant, nor Orthodox Christians have clean hands and skeleton-free histories in this respect. Should we take such an argument as proof that Christianity is false? If not, I don't see how the current scandals affecting the Catholic Church are any firmer proof of its failure to preserve the fullness of the faith.
Secondly, Paul *absolutely* saw Peter as a leader of the church. If Peter had not been viewed by his fellow Christians as a leader, why would Paul have felt it necessary to so strenuously rebuke him regarding his Judaizing tendencies? If you look at the passage in context, Paul mentions his rebuke of Peter after saying that Peter had been "entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the Gentiles", that he was "apostle to the Jews," and that he was among those "reputed to be pillars" of the faith (see Galatians 2). That's hardly the kind of language one would use to describe someone who isn't a leader! To the contrary, Paul viewed Peter's hypocrisy on the matter of eating with Gentiles as all the more dangerous *because* Peter was a leader of the Church. He mentioned his rebuke of Peter to show that he wasn't afraid to stand up to anyone who preached error, even another apostle.
You are right to say that Paul saw himself as Peter's peer, since he identified himself as an apostle along with Peter (though to the Gentiles, not to the Jews), but it would be wrong to claim that Paul didn't believe that Peter had special teaching and apostolic authority.
In any event, as others have mentioned, the doctrine of infallibility is extremely limited. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong on this, please) A pope must explicitly invoke this doctrine and state that he is speaking ex cathedra - from the seat of Peter - in order for his proclamations on faith and morals to be considered infallible.
On the Marian issue, you've already made it clear that you reject any reasoning from the Early Church Fathers (I have to ask, do you consider the Early Church Councils at all authoritative?), so I won't waste anyone's time by going on about that. You might find it helpful to do some more reading on the topic, however.
Correction - my previous comment ought to have said, "entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel . . . to the Jews", not to the Gentiles! (Gal. 2:7)
Joel,
I agree that cyberspace discussion usually quickly degenerate, so instead of trying to offer my own rebuttal, I'll pass you some resource that answer some of your objections from a purely scriptural standpoint. Below is a link to some transcribed talks that Dr. Scott Hahn gave a few years back in which he tackles most of what you (legitemately I might add) raise. They are well worth reading....
Scott Hahn's links page
...towards the bottom of the page, you'll see the transcripts I am referring too. While they are all excellent, in specific see these...
The Pope, Holy Father
Mary, Holy Mother
Mary, Ark of the covenant
...and to any Catholics here who haven't read these, I HIGHLY recommend them.
As to the HS being able to protect teaching 'wherever he finds faithful believers', I can only ask how the average person is suppossed to know WHERE that is from generation to generation? Does the HS infallibly guide each of us to the right place where those faithfully protecting the truth are to be found?
Joel, you have definitely twisted my comment regarding the Church as a hospital for sinners and BTW you can only crticise the Church members for their sins when you are completely free from sin yourself.
If you admit the Church(s) do in fact guard the Deposit of Truth with the guidance of the Holy Spirit - how come there's so much dissent over what constitutes Truth?
I admit to ignorance over the Azusa Street Revival last century, so I'm unable to comment but I defy anybody to acquaint themselves with the facts surrounding a shrine like Lourdes and still baldly stand there and say we Catholics have skewed things wrong when it comes to the Mother of God.
Pax
Another Steve
Hi Joel...thanks for the post. I hope you don't mind if the blog author replies. I don't think it is necessary that the discussion devolve from here into name calling, and in fact I'll try to prevent it from doing so.
As for your first point, if you read a scholarly book such as _Pedophiles and Priests_ by Philip Jenkins (a non-Catholic), you will see that the incidence of child sex abuse is not any worse in the Catholic Church than in any other Christian group. However, regardless, your main point does not hold. One could just as well say that they'd refuse to become a Christian because of Judas. Judas, after all, was one of the Apostles, and was a main collaborator in the worst crime of all time. Jesus clearly said that scandal would come, and the fact that scandal exists in any particular Christian group at any particular time does not invalidate the teachings.
Connected with both this point, and the point about papal infallibility, Jesus told those questioning him to obey the Pharisees since they sit on the seat of Moses, but NOT to follow what they did. (Matt. 23:2-3) This shows that concerns about personal actions and concerns about teaching authority are to be kept separate. Paul's rebuke to Peter clearly falls under the former category, and besides, as another commenter mentioned, infallibility is very tightly restricted. It simply does not come into play very often.
The main point is that a teaching authority, protected by the power of the Holy Spirit, is necessary to keep the Church from falling into error. The existence of so many committed Christians who love Jesus with all their heart, yet cannot agree on central issues of how we are saved, Baptism, Eucharist, etc. should be enough evidence of this. As I pointed out initially, we cannot even know the correct canon of the Bible without this teaching authority.
The other commenters have responded very well to your points about papal infallibility and Mary (especially the links that SteveG provided), so I'll limit myself to a couple of comments.
As far as Mary's "mediatrix" title, all Christians are mediators between man and God as part of the Body of Christ. Christ, of course, is the ONE mediator. This does not preclude other mediation being done in a secondary sense, THROUGH and ONLY through Christ. You can see this in the very context of the famous "ONE MEDIATOR" passage I Timothy 2:1-5. In verse 5, Timothy speaks of Christ being the one mediator, but in the prior passages, Timothy urges us to make intercession for all men. Every time we pray for our fellow man, we are acting as mediators in a secondary sense. Combine that with James 5:16, which says that the prayer of a righteous man is powerful, and you can see why Mary is looked on by Catholics as the "Mediatrix"...of course, the mediation Mary exercises is entirely subject to, and part of, the mediation of Christ.
As to Mary's honor in the Church, I couldn't see how it could be any other way. Jesus perfectly fulfilled the commandment "Honor your mother and father", in both the human and divine sense. For an defense of the Immaculate Conception, you need to look deeply into the Greek term "kecharitomene" used in Luke 1:28, usually translated "full of grace" or "highly favored".
That's plenty for now; if you read the links provided by Steve, you'll have plenty to think about. God bless you, Joel, and all of you other commenters too!
Thanks for visiting my fledgling blog!
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